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Post by tomk on Dec 25, 2020 9:56:12 GMT
I don't play support characters personally but I think it'd be interesting to see some of the professions you'd normally associate with them, or simply some of the lesser-end professions get some love. I'm mostly talkin' about giving some attention to. . .
Scout (listen I'm not trying to be biased here haha. . .) - More niche than I'd say outright weak. If you aren't trying to go the stealth route or pull some Shisui shit it doesn't really hurt you. If you are? Seems a bit 50/50. I haven't delved too much into the stealth side of things so I don't know too much but I'd imagine it might be cbt if it doesn't have any mechanical defense against stuff like Battle Instinct and whatnot. Given assassination attempts are intended to be hard, it makes sense especially against superhumans. Sensor - Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I understand but it still hurts. Medic - Don't have too much info. Fuuinjutsu - Very versatile depending on your brain mass and understanding of it - as well as natural bounds based on what you're playing. This fits the least among this list.
Rather than jumping to any conclusions I mostly just want to propose a concept that's more or less a rough draft based on how Soulbringers, Gravity Deathbringers and crusaders function in the way of receiving a weapon/taijutsu slot (based on the profession) to facilitate it rather than having to branch off into Weaponist. I'll just say right now that this is more or less a QoL proposal than an attempt at using the same logic they bear (considering those professions in question use the very tools they offer as part of their style of fighting).
So, allusions aside, I think looking into the possibility of letting those 4 (if not other professions I'm simply cold-shouldering on accident) gain access to a 'sub profession' that works off of the idea of opening up more feats for said main professions would be interesting. I guess some examples would be allowing a Scout to partially slip into Taijutsu or Sensory, and raise it to T1-T4 without lockin' into the profession. You'd only get one, and on the off-chance that you have multiple of these particular professions you wouldn't stack them without having the original profession you're partially delved into. Likewise, you'd be able to creep into B-Rank and above with this sort of thing, too.
Medic-wise, the idea's a bit less defined. Maybe one Taijutsu or Weapon perk?
Sensory... idk bro this profession hurts to remember.
Fuuinjutsu's a similar case to Medic in that not too much would work. I'd imagine something like chain or other weaponry fluid enough to weave in fuuinjutsu could work here.
I guess a more specific angle of approach for this sort of thing would be limiting these sub-profession locks to a specific selection or just outright 'one or fuck off'. Or even saying you can't go past say.. T2 or T3 for something. Scout, I could see fitting Speedster in that regard for a 'free' access thing, whereas Medic seems it'd work best specifically with Marksman & its line for the rare soul that's interested in Needles of Death and that sort of thing. Sensory...
Sensory......
S e n s o r y . . . . . . . . . . . . .
My heart & soul both go out to you guys that lock it if you're not a non-clan or Diligent trait possessor? If you are? good investment u bastards.
Already addressed Fuuin for this bit earlier than I intended.
But uh. If anyone has any thoughts on this, hit this thread's line I guess. Share your thoughts and all that jazz.
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Post by black on Dec 25, 2020 17:24:38 GMT
I think a better way of revising these professions is giving more to them to make them feel an a profession. You say weaponist and you see potentially tens, even hundreds of different paths or weapon combinations.
Same with Taijustu.
Then you hear "Sensory" and your much more creatively limited and mechanically limited. Same with Scout, which would probably require some self-custom perks made and a good kit to even be considered viable, before it falls off mid-game as everyone has some sort of X detection to see your shit.
I think adding a good amount of coded techniques + about 2-3 lock-required perk lines for both would help flesh it out more and make it more expansive.
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Post by uhsteve on Dec 25, 2020 19:31:43 GMT
I think I can do this for Necromancer classes since it's a meme that I play them all the time.
Cursing - Really Good for operating a lot of crowd control at times. Curses are great because they use a stat no one ever really builds. Like yeah, people hard focus on perks that dwarf cursing or mental effects, or they'll all out just learn techniques to counter. However, Cursing as a centralized focus mid to late game becomes catastrophic. Nekozuchi displayed how curses turn if you cannot be blocked whatsoever. I'd suggest you think hard on how you wanna do it though: I made a really EXCELLENT curse that I never bought, but in reality if I had it would've maybe me grossly applicable. Remember you as a Curse user can change so much about your opponent, mostly because perception and sense are 90% of our combat system. You're 100% wanted by higher players bc as a Curse user, the chances that you can actually impact a fight as a new player is...really high. And it can really help (or hurt *stares at Okorafor*).
Dark Summoning - *Sigh* Okay I'ma be real. This is fucking hard to do. I can't even say Late game you get anything because Summoners don't live to Late Game. However, it is a widely great mechanism for story and every single character in Dark Mana desires one because they can open portals to the Maosen. But not as much as Curse users. Dark Summonings arent meant to use summons to fight. All summons are supplementary things, or should be. I recommend making object-based demons like Yokai. The thing about Summoners also is they can make techs that boost other summons --and-- dark magic users while also just customing demons that mimic cool powers. Some say they wanna swarm people: Swarms don't work because Transitionist. At most, you can make them waste energy for a few turns if they can't be mobile like you can.
Their main application is the Quantification process which makes you part demon. However, all of this is circumstantial to if you know the mechanics and the system properly. To be clear: summoners CAN fight lower level persons, but it's better if you make one AFTER going another simple class like Weaponist, Tai, etc. NEVER be a Dark Summoner and another Dark Magic class, unless you wanna struggle. One of your classes should be something that doesn't use mana.
There're Victorious Summons too, but the fact they can be so easily killed means they're a hole sink you should be careful with.
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Post by tomk on Dec 25, 2020 23:51:24 GMT
I think a better way of revising these professions is giving more to them to make them feel an a profession. You say weaponist and you see potentially tens, even hundreds of different paths or weapon combinations. Same with Taijustu. Then you hear "Sensory" and your much more creatively limited and mechanically limited. Same with Scout, which would probably require some self-custom perks made and a good kit to even be considered viable, before it falls off mid-game as everyone has some sort of X detection to see your shit. I think adding a good amount of coded techniques + about 2-3 lock-required perk lines for both would help flesh it out more and make it more expansive. Eh. Possibly. I could see it working with everything but Sensory tbh. Just a sad lock but at the same time viable to a degree. Very weird mix.
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Post by lionhunter on Dec 26, 2020 1:32:09 GMT
Support is a class that is more for alts, people who dont know how to build fighters, or people who would rather support than be the main focus of a battle.
The typical classes for supports were named by Tomk.
However, there are a few more that could be fit in this catagory as well as clans that usually fall in this role:
Medics - First and foremost, you CAN be a frontline fighter medic but you spend so much time on your medical knowledge and intel that its not really worth at all.
Pharamacist - Same as Medics, but with pills. Unless your a High-Speced Willis, your a support character
Toxicologist - The first class on this list where you can go either or. Poison users can be dps, please see Poison Power Hyojun.
Exorcist - Another support class that COULD be mid-tier front line fighter if you have the right gear.
Scout - (See the first post)
Cleric - *Cries* R.I.P. :praying hands:
Im sure there are a few more maybe, but the rest can have a good argument for being a good front line fighter.
Now for the clans that are more or less seen as support, minus a few acceptations:
Shikki - If you go Rinki you can make a good front line fighter, but othe than that your mostly support unless you supplement yourself into other classes.
Baron - Cash rules everything around me. You could TRY front line Baron but your better off battling over stocks than players.
Willis - You can go either way, but if you focus medic then your definitely support.
Hakujou - Unless you built ya intel to like 300+ stay in the hospital. Unless your Nobunaga...
Yanhui - You got alot of trap techniques that can allow ya buddy to crush your target. But at the end of the day you are in the same boat as the Hakujou, in terms of intel powering your skills.
Vanderblit - Crafter curse. If your a crafter, your priority is staying support. You can only be a mid-tier fighter because of your dedication to your craft. Dont mean you cant use your crafts to make yourself formidable though.
Bhkki(?) - In support class of the monks that use the incense. I know nothing about them but they based on buffing and debuffing enemies/allies.
Now keep in mind that there is a exception to EVERY thing. But this more or less should be a valid opinion on the support matter.
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Post by victoriousrazor on Dec 26, 2020 2:20:30 GMT
I actually have to rebuke some of your declarations, based on my own research.
Barons are actually very good at being frontline fighters, if you build for it. It's sort of niche, but also not? Just takes a little bit of work and you can be very competitive - even able to fight 'combat' clans. I wholeheartedly disagree. Hakujou get insane amount of intelligence, get the ability to make techniques that scale with their intelligence [with reasonable caps], and a number of very powerful tools to supplement their own fighting style. Not to mention, medic in its own right is very powerful if you do it in combination with, say, a martial art/weapon art. Hakujou take those and put them to an entire degree on their own. If you go taijutsu/medic on a Hakujou, you can probably dominate very well at higher levels.
Rune lock + Weaponist lock. Rune Lock + Taijutsu lock. You can make custom runes that are specifically catered towards beating the absolute fuck out of people, trapping people, and anything in between. We've only seen crafter-bilts, because people only wanted to play crafter-bilts. Valentino is a powerful force of nature, but no one ever fights him.
Bhikku actually get exorcist abilities. You can one hundred percent play an exorcist Bhikku and ruin the day of demons as a front-line fighter, imho. For the most part, though, they are kind've support guys.
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Post by freeter on Dec 26, 2020 3:58:04 GMT
Hi hi. Pitching in as someone who has played Sensors back-to-back-to-back. After Kyouka, all of my characters have been Sensors and I've been shamelessly creating my characters as Sensors. There's a reason for this!
Sensory - While it might not seem like a huge booster or a good profession lock seeing as it only have -one- Perk that is allocated to it as a profession lock, it has a lot of benefits both ICly and OOCly. There's a reason why Sensory is fine like that, it allows a person to virtually react to things that'd normally be impossible for them to react to. In other cases, it allows them to perfectly locate enemies that'd be hidden. Or even allows them to see what a person is planning by sensing their essence signatures.
In addition! Disguises won't work. Blinding techniques will not be as effective. Techniques that target your physical senses may not have as much of an effect by using your Sensory Perk to mitigate these debuffs. And above all:
You can get a Sensory Buff that doesn't really interfere with other buffs! (Or at least from my experience) There's nothing that says powerful IC ability than Sensory.
And while it has a lot of room for improvement with its lack of other perks to be associated with it, the techniques that you can make with Sensory can all be very creative or straight to the point. Especially in an RP game where Voice of the Body is a thing. What says a person can't exactly develop their own version of it, through Sensory? (Admittedly, Sensory Perk doesn't give as much as Stat Points as other perks but its benefits are really great.)
That said! While Custom Perks are a thing, it'd be great if some more attention is given to Sensory Profession when it comes to Perks.
Take note that whatever I said here is an opinion based on my experiences and my enjoyment. Ways of enjoying the game and the RP heavily differ from person to person so keep that in mind.
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Post by DANTE REBORNEDS on Dec 27, 2020 13:24:14 GMT
For what it's worth, I really support the idea of combining professions mentioned in the original post.
Building on it. . . It'd give Scout more of an assassin-y feeling if they had things like Sensory, and maybe other Perks to build off that and encourage stealthy or strategic playstyles, differing from person to person based on whether they pick Sensory or CQC as their side perk. Scout could even work with Caster types that way.
It would probably give it good synergy with Medic as well, regarding combat Medics, and kill two birds with one stone. I'm looking at usage of human anatomy, poison, scalpel, removal of senses via pharmacy + Sensory or Essence / Mana + Sensory, etcetera.
Right now, Scout and Sensory professions are useful depending on your build, no doubt, and undeniably, some people can truly make them work, but they do not directly encourage any form of gameplay on their own and require more depth, hence the above suggestion. Some of these things are already very well possible, but. . . I don't think they're encouraged.
It is the same issue as some other professions where you must figure out a playstyle on your own, and where the lack of direct guidance should allow you to customize it freely and make for a unique experience, it does the opposite because it lacks enough depth to build on.
Obviously, there would probably be a few balancing issues here and there, but I don't see them as too difficult to solve personally.
I guess a good word to describe Scout, Summoner, Sensory, and all that, would probably be 'outdated', in my opinion.
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